Digital Noise Network

Hater Interview


Soundgarden bassist, Hater bassist, vocalist, guitarist Ben Shepherd interviewed Friday, March 18, 2005, while in Seattle.

Hater was a side project for Ben Shepherd which also included former Soundgarden and current Pearl Jam drummer Matt Cameron on drums, former Monster Magnet guitarist John McBain and Brian Wood, brother of the late Mother Love Bone vocalist Andrew Wood. More then ten years after being recorded, Hater is releasing their second album, called "The 2nd" later this month on Burn Burn Burn Records.

Patrick: Hey Ben, this is Patrick Douglas. How are you doing?

Ben: Hey, pretty good. What's up?

Patrick: Ready to do an interview?

Ben: Oh yeah.

Patrick: To start off, I gotta tell you, I'm a big fan of Hater.

Ben: Cool.

Patrick: I was really stoked to hear there was another album coming out. It was the strangest damn thing because we were listening to the first album at work one day and a coworker and I were like 'man, how the hell did such a talented group of dudes only have one album?' and found out about "The 2nd" like two days later.

Ben: That's cool. I'm glad you've done your part (laughs).

Patrick: Because of the time period in which this material was recorded, it's obvious it was a side project for you guys. Do you think that's what makes it so special?

Ben: I think it was just more of the chemistry. The fun of it that made it anything at all. I don't know that it was because it was a side band. It was. It was done for the fun of it. So that probably had a lot to do with people thinking it was special or something. But, it was special to us. It was fun. It was our escape, you know. There was no pressure on us. We just had fun on it. That's what I mean by the chemistry. It's like it was done for the fun of it, you know. That just jazzes things up when you're just free.

Patrick: So it was more of a relaxed setting?

Ben: It was all done for the fun of it. Just like "The 2nd" was done as demos, so there wasn't any pressure. It was just like 'let's just do this.' Let's record these songs. These are the songs I have. Unfortunately no one else brought songs in.

Patrick: You had the first album in '93, and "The 2nd" the demos were"recorded in '95. How many years would you say you guys were involved in this project?

Ben: Me for a long time, because I tried for a couple of years to mix it. When I could get back to the studio and go for it. By then everyone had quite, left, you know. I was the necrophiliac of the group. It's really hard to describe making a record sometime. It's not like taking a photo, where you just push the button and snap, there it is. It's like going through the whole darkroom process or inventing film. And trying to get sounds right. Struggling at it or having fun with it, it's all part of a huge, long process sometimes. Finally, the main thing is we finally found someone to put it out. No one ever wanted to.

Patrick: This is the first time I've ever heard of a band sitting on new material for a decade before releasing it. What happened after recording these tracks that made them go away for a while?

Ben: Well, A&M pulled it for one. Soundgarden broke up for another. Then Hater broke up. So, life happened. (laughs). I wound up recording with Lanegan and stuff and doing other things. Every body else, Matt joined Pearl Jam. He and John started Wellwater Conspiracy, so they were doing that. So there's a myriad of reasons why it took so long.

Patrick: What finally triggered you to go and dig 'em out and release them again?

Ben: They were already mixed and they'd been sitting there for a long time and my friends Drew and Kwab said they'd put it out. So, finally after three different people said, 'no we liked the first Hater record, we don't want to put out this one.'

Patrick: What's actually going on with the band as of today? Are you guys planning on getting together and doing some touring? Is the band even back together or is it just this album coming out?

Ben: The album's coming out, we're trying to coagulate a group of people to do whatever. Rock out basically. It goes from there.

Patrick: It'll be a different lineup from Brian and Matt and John.

Ben: Right now it's like looking at a demented old man just looking out on the porch (laughs) daydreaming about it. We already know who we want and it's a matter of getting everybody's schedules right and locking down and doing it. So that's where it's at today.

Patrick: I know "The 2nd" hasn't even come out yet, but are at a point where you're getting excited and thinking of new songs already?

Ben: Oh yeah. I have a new band already. I have a new band and that's what we're doing right now really. It's kind of hard juggling between the two. It's just a matter or organization and it comes down to meaning it or not. If you mean it, do it. If you don't, quite. We wanna rock out. I've wanted this to come out so people can hear how good the other guys played. I could give a shit less. Just like the first record. I was a snob about it. I didn't want it to come out. I wanted it to be a whole big secret recording project. With no one knowing who was in it and all this crap. Just weird points of view. It would be a total blast to do this. I know that.

Patrick: You mentioned that you didn't want it to come out. What satisfaction would you get out of having such great music and knowing not very many people are listening to it?

Ben: The original idea was to record forever, you know what I mean. Start culling songs. We're just having this group of people going in and recording. Some day getting it out there. Luckily we've got people behind it that believe in it and want it to go out. For me, I'm just a thunderhead, the other guys are the organized ones. I'm like, 'let's do this.'

Patrick: You mentioned you've got another band. Help me understand. You've got something else besides Hater that you're working on and you're trying to get Hater together as far as just get people going. Are you going to be doing stuff as Hater, or the band you're working in now?

Ben: I don't know. It's like put a deck of cards in your hand and blow as hard as you can and see what happens (laughs). You know what I mean?

Patrick: What have you been doing with yourself the past couple of years?

Ben: I just got hired to record with this kid Jordan Cook in Memphis the other week. Like I said, I recorded with Lanegan on a couple records. Now I've just been in my own studio recording stuff for years. All of it's recorded. All the way from 1986 till now, I've recorded. Actually probably even earlier, more like '82, I've been recording songs. So I've always been doing that. Other than that, I've just been getting more and more demented.

Patrick: You've been a part of so much rock and roll history. Right in the middle of all of it. I'm sure you've seen you're share of ups and downs in the business. Tell me what it's been like for you over the last twenty years as each new chapter has come up in your career.

Ben: It's been really, really bizarre. I don't know where to start with that (laughs). I hate using corny words like blessings and all that, but it is. It is a blessing. Getting to see it, be a part of it. Just basically living and taking for granted. Just keep playing. A lot of the good things, whenever good things happen, and this is with everybody, something bad will overshadow it. It balances everything out. Being in Soundgarden, for me, those guys made it so natural and so easy and so cool. It wasn't like a big head trip. It was just like 'wow, we GET to play music.' Let's do this and do the best we can. They made it really natural for me. It just seemed really normal. People would always ask me, 'what was it like? Has it dawned on you yet'. No, it hasn't dawned on me. It seems really normal. I don't know how to describe it. Other people would probably be real more imaginative and way more fun about it or something. Or more poignant. But, to me it just seemed really normal like breathing. And I know I cough a lot so breathing is kind of funny.

Patrick: I've been doing a lot of that lately.

Ben: Yeah. That weird flu going around this year.

Patrick: I've been down with Bronchitis lately, so I've been choking!

Ben: For me, it's called a lot of cigarettes. To me it's always amazing because to me it seems only the healthy people get sick.

Patrick: You mentioned Soundgarden and how much fun it was and natural to make music. What actually happened with that? Did you guys just decide to end it and try something new?

Ben: Yeah. That's pretty much it. I was just thinking about that the other day. It's like wow, those guys were doing this a long time as this one group. And any group of people, you have a certain life span you know. And everybody expands and grows and does different stuff, or wants to. And one chemistry can go so far and I can see why they were like, let's not do this anymore. Let's move on. It was time. There was no story about that. It was just time to move on.

Patrick: Yeah. 'Cause Soundgarden was around for a long time before they really kicked in.

Ben: Yeah. Exactly. Working hard. People who mean work hard and they go for it. There's a lot of bands right now that have been around for a long time that people are finally ... like I was in this coffee shop and I just heard "Lust for Life" (Iggy Pop) the record. And I was all surprised because it wasn't a goddamned soundtrack, you know what I mean? It's like wow, that record was recorded so long ago and now it's mainstream, durable stuff, you know. There's a lot of work that goes into it before you even get anywhere, or noted at all. I lucked out as far as that goes with the hard core of those dudes jamming. I still have their first set list too.

Patrick: I read in a book called "Come As You Are" a piece about your early involvement with the Nirvana guys in general, and there was a quote in there from Kurt (Cobain) where he said he regretted not bringing you on board and he said in this quote that you're "kind of crazy in a good" way, but not in some moody metal head way." What do you think he meant by that?

Ben: Hell, I don't know. I've never even heard that. (laughs). I have no idea.

Patrick: I was wondering what that meant.

Ben: In our vernacular, that would mean, he wasn't doing it as a shtick. It's not a shtick. That's how he saw me. It's like, ah whatever. He's kind of a crazy dick head. That's the way he is. It's not some metal head, like 'hey I'm gonna do this as creepy guy.

Patrick: Back in that time period, what was it like in that section of time. The book mentioned that you were a roadie for Nirvana and it was just before you joined up with the Soundgarden guys.

Ben: Those guys asked me the day before Soundgarden to try out for their band. So both bands asked me within a day of each other to try out for their band. And both of them turned me down. Then Soundgarden came back six months later and got me. It's funny because I told our soundman at the time, or the Soundgarden sound man at the time, 'watch, in six months these guys will come back and ask me to join.' (laughs) Exactly six months later they did, almost to the day. I was all fuckin' flustered at that point. I was like 'oh my god.' Because I had this total fever of like 'I gotta play, I gotta play, I gotta play.' I wanna play so bad. I wanna go for it. Because I'd already been in bands in Seattle, you know, sneaking into my own shows because I was underage and shit like that. Totally wanting to play music. That's what I did. On "The 2nd" that song "Fe"er Saint" that's wha" that song means to me. That's what fever saint is. If you're touched to do something, you can't sit still in your own skin, you've gotta go for it. It means getting up and pacing around. If you're touched, you gotta go and gotta do it. That's why I was all flustered when Soundgarden didn't take me. Then I just went, OK. I relaxed. I went, 'I hate music. I love it, and I gotta do my own thing I guess.' So then I hated music and I went down to Portland and saw this really cool band, it was one of their first shows ever and made me like music again. It was called Dead Moon and it totally blew my mind. It was like 'oh my god, now I really have to play.' Nowadays when I get bummed out on music I listen to Captain Beefheart and they're cool. Everything's cool (laughs).

Patrick: Going back to what you said earlier. Every time something really good happened, it seemed to be followed up by something bad. Is that how you felt when you had both of these bands after you and the next day passed?

Ben: No. I just think of everybody's success around us had its price on everybody. That's more of what I was talking about. Every time something good would happen, something bad would happen. Cheap checks and balances perception going, instead of the glorious salad days, shiny bullshit. It's like no it's reality too. That's with everybody's life I think. It depends on what philosophy you're ignoring.

Patrick: I've seen Kim (Thayil) has participated in the Wellwater Conspiracy as have yourself …

Ben: Kim did? When did Kim do something with them? (laughs). I lost track of those guys awhile ago.

Patrick: He was on "The Scroll and It's Combinations."

Ben: Really. I didn't listen to it.

Patrick: Dude, you were on the same record and you didn't know it?

Ben: No. Those guys would do the same thing. They would cull people. They'd cull musicians together. Maybe this take would be on that record, maybe one would be on another one. I never ... I don't even have any copies of that stuff.

Patrick: That's the album that has Eddie Vedder on it and they refer to him as Wes C. Addle on the liners.

Ben: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Patrick: But anyway, Kim has participated in that. Has there ever been talk between you and him as far as bringing him on Hater?

Ben: No, I always make up joke bands to do with Kim. The last one ... we know this guy that's a lot like Peter Sellers in "The Party" I wanted to make this band with him called Birdy Num Num. He always looked at me like I was crazy, but we made up the scenario with this band Birdy Num Num. I don't know what Kimmy's doing.

Patrick: Last question. If you could share the stage with any bands that have ever played, past or present, what would the lineup be like?

Ben: A bunch of deaf, blind monks (laughs). Basically. So I could have all the fun. That's a really hard question. I'd have to think about that one for a long time. Off the top of my head, it would be cool to have Nick Drake on way too loud of an electric guitar. Phyllis Diller on drums. Actually when I was a little kid, I wanted to be in a band with Keith Moon somehow. Just to see what that would be like.

Patrick: Greatest drummer ever.

Ben: What about Max Roach? Can't keep him out of the mix. You know Max Roach, the jazz king?

Patrick: Actually I don't.

Ben: Oh man. He's one of the best drummers to walk the planet. Him and Elvin Jones. They're right there. I like Danny Richman a lot too. That's the thing in Seattle right now. There's a slew of really killer drummers that are amazing. World class. They're usually doing 50 different things, so you don't get to jam with them (laughs) you know? It's very frustrating.

Patrick: Have you heard of a Seattle band called Maktub?

Ben: Yeah man, Reggie. One of the most fun jams I've ever had with anybody was with Reggie and Matt Cameron. 'Cause they were jamming at our studio one day and I just happened to be there and right as I was leaving, they showed up and they said 'hey, you wanna jam' so I said cool. The next two and a half hours we jammed. It was so fun. I played guitar and bass and I'd switch back and forth and Reggie was playing his keys and Matt was drumming.

Patrick: Reggie is kind of a legend out here in Great Falls. He was born and raised out here.

Ben: He's one of the best singers around. I love that guy.

Patrick: Cool Ben, it's been really nice talking to you.

Ben: Likewise.

Patrick: I'm a huge fan.

Ben: Cool man. Thanks for ever listening to us and take care of your cough brother.


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